New and about to buy!

289, FIA & Daytona topics
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SimonHudson
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:16 pm

New and about to buy!

Post by SimonHudson »

Hi All, I'd love your advice before I dive in!

I'm considering the purchase of a BRA 289. Rover V8, MGB based with a live leaf spring rear axle. I'd done my basic research and was considering a Hawk 289 build, (having previously built an AK 427 some time ago), but this finished BRA has dropped into the mix. I would like to know your collective thoughts on the differences between the Hawk and the BRA, merits or negative thoughts either way. I'd decided I wanted independent rear suspension and an LSD (like my AK), as that handled and performed very well, and the Hawk can achieve that. I've never liked the whole live axle thing, and ultimately would have preferred a larger engine. If at some point I wanted to swap out the Rover for a Ford 289, can the BRA/MGB live axle handle that power?

Generally I don't know much about the BRA as a car either so feedback and advice would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Simon
StuBaker
Posts: 223
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: New and about to buy!

Post by StuBaker »

Welcome Simon.
I don't know about the BRA but I've just swapped out my RV8 to Ford V8 in a Hawk.
Wasn't too hard but there are lots of things to consider.
Engine mounts to reweld, gearbox mounts, air cleaner clearance, propshaft, front suspension, changes to clutch, transmission tunnel
I'd be tempted to buy a Hawk already done if that's the spec you want. Unless you have the time the space and the inclination...
And I have a Jag rear end and 310mm discs on the front. Depends on the power you're expecting but I'm sure there'll be some suspension work on the B axle.
Hope that helps,
Stu
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David Large
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:28 am
Location: Walsall

Re: New and about to buy!

Post by David Large »

I have a BRA that we built in the 1980s and which has been on the road for 33 years. I have done over 60,000 miles in it. To put a bigger engine than the Rover block engine (up to 5.0 litres!) in the BRA will probably be quite difficult but not impossible. My car has a 4 litre, late block, 250bhp Rover in it which I find quite acceptable and the MGB GT V8 live rear axle deals with it well, through a Rover LT77 5 speed gearbox. I guess that the chassis gearbox and transmission would probably handle 300bhp but the torque from a 4.7 litre Ford V8 might be stretching things a bit.
The handling is also quite good but a live rear axle is a live rear axle.

Gerry Hawkridge worked for BRA before he started Hawk cars and the current Hawk is much improved compared to a 30+ year old BRA and now has design features/options which will make it perform better than a standard BRA depending on how much you have to spend when you build it.
My car has been modified over the years I have bigger discs and calipers on the front brakes, disc brakes on the back axle and I like it to drive.

The advice given by Stu to buy a Hawk if you want to put in a Ford 289 cubic inch engine in your car I think is good, buy a Hawk.

It all depends on what you want your car to do. For road use I think my BRA is well adequate.

When I want real fun I get on a track and compete in sprints and speed hillclimbs in my Radical PR6.

David
cobraboy
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:50 pm

Re: New and about to buy!

Post by cobraboy »

BRA owner for nigh on 30 years.
The stock BRA is an OK street ride, but can be improved a lot.
There are Hawks, and there are better Hawks, by that I mean just because it says HAWK on the tin does not mean it is any better than a BRA.
A Hawk with stock MGB front suspension and a live axle with leaf springs with drum brakes will handle much the same as a BRA.

Massive improvements can be made by fitting double wishbone front suspension and coilovers with the ability to set up the front geometry correctly.
Also the rear can be improved as well.
Weight of the various components has to be taken into account, the 289 Ford is heavier than the Rover, and the Jag IRS is also a heavy lump.

My take on this has been to make bespoke double wishbone front suspension with coilover units, fully adjustable for camber, caster, toe, height and damping.
For the rear I retained the live axle, but four linked it, with a full width Panhard rod and coilovers, rear discs were also added.
A 4 litre Rover and LT77 provide the power. The car has a 48 - 52 F/R weight distribution and is nicely neutral in handling.
Where the Hawk will score over a BRA is the quality of the more authentic body, but a BRA can be worked on to look more original.
It's all about how much money it's going to take to bring whatever you buy up to the standard you want.

A few years ago my head was very nearly turned by a Hawk FIA, until I realised the car looked fab, but the build spec was that of a MGB, boy am I glad I stayed loyal to my old girl.

Edit
Ford v Rover ? - A Rover engined car will be, and is, way more nimble than a Ford engined car.
A 270 hp Rover with a live axle would be my ideal combo.
StuBaker
Posts: 223
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: New and about to buy!

Post by StuBaker »

I agree with you guys. I had great fun in my asthmatic incontinent old 3.5. It actually suited my needs. I only swapped it out because it was always due a rebuild. I thought pound for pound the Ford combination was better value so I went that way. Took me 8 months though.
Just enjoy it whatever you buy. It's a lifetime commitment, theres always something to fettle.
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simonjrwinter
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Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:25 pm
Location: Upminster, Essex.

Re: New and about to buy!

Post by simonjrwinter »

I’ve had two hawks, the first was MGB suspended with a live axle and a 3.5 rover. Second (current) car is tubular wishbone, IRS axle’d with a mildly tuned 302 and (IMHO) a very different and far, far nicer car to drive and own. I LOVE the Rover V8 (I have one in my TR6) but you just can’t beat a 289/302.
Simon
TR6 (V8) Hawk 289 FIA (V8) Doing my bit for global warming.
SirrahBRA
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:17 pm

Re: New and about to buy!

Post by SirrahBRA »

Having just part restored a BRA I don't think you'd put a ford V8 in without chopping the chassis around and lowering the whole thing.
The engine sits so much higher in a BRA that the lowest RV8 only just fits under the hood scoop, without a filter.
Also width wise you need very slim headers to fit between the chassis rails and they are quite high.

If money isn't the issue the Hawk is the way to go.
SimonHudson
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:16 pm

Re: New and about to buy!

Post by SimonHudson »

Brilliant responses there, thank you all very much, really useful stuff and exactly what I was hoping to find out.

I have a fully equipped workshop (my business restores steam engines), so doing the work is technically not an issue,....... but at the same time there is definite merit to just having the car as something I can enjoy rather than it becoming an extension of work!

The relative weights of the ally Rover block versus the Ford steel block were not lost on me, and so hearing the mention of the Rover engined car feeling more nimble definitely addressed a concern I had there, and makes me feel that if I went with the Rover BRA then it'd be sensible to stick with that and just enjoy it for what it is.

Having read about how high the engine is mounted in the Rover V8 BRA, if on test drive it feels a little wallowy, I might look into altering the mounts to lower the Rover V8 and get the centre of gravity down a little.

I've never driven a live rear axled car before that has any real power. I had an MGB for a while which was great fun,..... but only because the live rear axle was so unsophisticated that you could lose the back end at 30mph on roundabouts if you wanted and not have to be sterling Moss to catch it! I'm still concerned that sticking a Rover V8 onto essentially that set up could make for a twitchy experience, but maybe I'm being too pessimistic. I'll see how the test drive goes!

Can I ask, body style wise,.... I understood that the BRA was moulded from an original 289, but cobraboy mentioned that the Hawk was more accurate? What's the truth on that, and what's group thoughts there from a 'it looks right' stand point? I can see that most Hawks look very good, but I was at least in part putting that down to the fact that they tend to have posher paint jobs and posher interior finishes, being generally newer than the 1980s BRAs? Is the BRA body accurate,.... if it was painted and trimmed like a modern build 2022 Hawk is likely to be, would it look just as good?

Thanks again, really appreciate your thoughts and knowledge.

Simon
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simonjrwinter
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Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:25 pm
Location: Upminster, Essex.

Re: New and about to buy!

Post by simonjrwinter »

If you can stretch to the Hawk that’s just gone up on the classifieds, do.
As far as I’m aware (and I’m no expert) the early BRA cars had a “lip” at the bottom of the sill which covered the chassis rail (see pic) I think later models did not.
Simon
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TR6 (V8) Hawk 289 FIA (V8) Doing my bit for global warming.
cobraboy
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:50 pm

Re: New and about to buy!

Post by cobraboy »

The body moulding on the BRA has a step moulded in the lower sill instead of curling under smoothly, You can take this out with bodywork, and I have.
The bonnet on a BRA will have a scoop.
The 'rim' around the cockpit on a BRA is formed as a fairly sharp edge instead of a roll.
The doors on a BRA are a slightly different shape to the original, and they are hung on different style hinges.
BRA bonnet and boot lid tend to have external hinges, and the bonnet panel fit is generally not good. I made a new mould and laid up an new bonnet that fits !
Most of these issues can be addressed.
Lowering the motor will be tricky, the steering column runs tight under the oil pump cover, and the motor is a tight fit in there.
Mk 1 and Mk 2 kits differ, the motor is further back in a Mk 2 and the chassis has an extra reinforcing brace to the X
The tunnel in a Mk 2 is generally squared off, round on a Mk 1
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