First thoughts and lots of questions...

289, FIA & Daytona topics
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David_W
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Location: Wiltshire and Dorset

First thoughts and lots of questions...

Post by David_W »

Hi all,

While I sit on the long waiting list for a Hawk, I’m starting to think about the car I want to build and I’d be grateful for any comments or feedback on the following:

I want the car to be loved by all the family and my daughter will be involved with the build (she works in motorsport and has a 289 Mustang, so you can understand her interest). We already have the donor car; My wife’s original 1972 MGB roadster. Unfortunately, it has Rostyle wheels and we want spokes, but I’ve spoken to ‘Andy Jennings MGB’ who are local and can help me achieve the best use of components for an age-related registration.

My current thinking is to go for a fibreglass road car with Ford 302 and 5 speed. I want it to be subtle with no more bling than an original. Definitely more 60’s classic than resto-mod. Yes to side fins, no to bonnet scoop. Fair weather car only, so no hard top.

Colour wise, the consensus of the family is Princess Blue with black interior. That is a somewhat rarer than the Princess Blue/red combo but a couple of cars with the colour scheme I’ve been looking at for inspiration are the Lindauer Cobra (CSX2344) or the John Atkins Cobra (COB6058) which is currently being returned to its original body style and colour at AC Heritage. Both or these cars have excellent photographic records online.

Apart from the driving position, I’d be interested to learn more about the differences between a CSX and COB? The dials seem to be an obvious one. I may visit the John Haynes Cobra (COB6029) at his museum, as I’ve only seen COB cars in FIA configuration.

For the powertrain, what do people recommend? I’m not going for high-end performance but obviously want reliability. I’ll probably stick with a simple carb set up (single Autolite or twin Carter style). Maybe EFI and probably electronic ignition if it looks original. I’ve seen a few mentions of Real Steel engine builds and have used them in the past for Mustang parts. Also considering long block crate imports but clearly that is a major budget consideration. I don’t know much about the transmission options, but I guess it’s better to throw out originality and go for a five speed? I’d prefer outboard brakes at the rear, so probably an MGB diff.

Which of Gerry’s upgrades should I go for and do they have to wait until after the age-related plate has been issued?

One area I need to learn about is gaining IVA approval before finishing the car in its final configuration. Also, achieving that without throwing good money after bad (I’m mindful of the forum rules on this topic). I have a good source of advice though, as a family member works in that section of the DVSA.

In terms of budget, it’s gone up considerably since I first met Gerry a number of years ago. I’m currently thinking circa £45K, although recent posts about the cost of a decent paint job have me worried! For this amount, what areas should I prioritise and are there any opportunities to make savings? I’m hoping delivery of the kit and my retirement will be relatively close together, so that will help with the labour for everything I can do myself.

When should I start collecting parts, or ordering long lead items, bearing in mind delivery won’t be for at least 2 years and 10 months! What are the hardest parts to source if I happen to see them pop up in eBay or at an autojumble?

Of course, I could start stripping down the MG, but then I’ll have to live with the mess, and it’s quite tidy at the moment sitting under a car cover. I’d be more confident starting that once Hawk takes my deposit.

Anyway, it’s early days, but that’s where I’m at currently. Sorry for so many questions in one post. I'm sure some of the answers are already on the forum but this is a quick brain dump! :D

Cheers
David
StuBaker
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Re: First thoughts and lots of questions...

Post by StuBaker »

Welcome David, I hope you get sorted soon, you'll love it.
Here's my story, a 23 year build. I wanted cheap so went for all MGB with Rover V8. The B V5 was '67 and the engine was '78, all bought in '98.
For IVA you can use the instruments, switches, lights etc if properly placed and then replace with original later. For example I fitted Land Rover lights.
I think it's easy to source parts to pass IVA. The difficulty and cost comes in converting to more original spec. and depends on how original you want to be. Exponential comes to mind. I reckon an original style dash would set you back nearly £2k in parts if done reasonably well.
Ford 289's are like the proverbial rocking horse doodoo at the minute, I'd get one now if you're going for Ford. As old as possible. No need to soup up, my old asthmatic RV8 was enough to make me and everyone else watching smile. (But saying that, 340bhp does make you titter when you're at the lights.). It helps getting an age related plate. Mine is a '67, F.
I liked the RV8, gear lever was in right position, changed nice, enough power, great sound. I only went Ford because it seemed cheaper to do up than the Rover, for the same BHP. Then I had to fit the Tremec T5.
You need an early MGB and lots of photos of you stripping and rebuilding it. Then sell off the bits you don't need. As far as I know, the more MGB you use the better but there are more knowledgeable people out there. Hopefully you will see a few more responses later.
If you buy extras from Hawk, get them now, if not you may have a long wait. Gerry's bits will fit without any hassle so it depends on your own skills if you want to fit your own exhaust etc.
Recommended are screen, Radiator, coolant header, exhaust manifold, heater, brake masters and callipers, steering rack, prop shaft, fuel tank. Oh, and wiring harness.
I actually made my own tank, and sourced prop shaft and brakes elsewhere but there is some angst in doing so as well as hiding costs from the Chief Accountant.
Why outboard brakes? Drums won't look right anyway. Fit the B axle for IVA and convert after IVA.
What do you mean about driving position differences? I thought the CSX and COB cars were the same, except LHD? You will find the Hawk seat position is high compared to an original but it can be sorted. Some owners fit smaller steering wheels if space is at a premium.
I have efi which is wonderful except the fuel gets hot when recirculating through engine bay. I have a cooler fitted now.
Go simple and get her on the road as soon as possible. You can tart her up every winter.
As for painting, the most important part is prepping. Find someone who does grp cars. I'd get someone local and cheap. You can waste a lot of money on paint and then always worry about it. It's a drivers car.
And finally, weather equipment. I'd recommend you have it, if only to keep the Chief Accountant happy. And it is a bit naff if you get caught in the rain with 100 miles to go. It rained on us on the way to IVA, 70 miles.
Hope that helps. Just my experience and opinions. As I've said in other posts, I still have loads to do, I've had mine on the road for 3 years. I love her.
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simonjrwinter
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Re: First thoughts and lots of questions...

Post by simonjrwinter »

David you have a DM
TR6 (V8) Hawk 289 FIA (V8) Doing my bit for global warming.
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David_W
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Location: Wiltshire and Dorset

Re: First thoughts and lots of questions...

Post by David_W »

Thanks for the excellent feedback Stu. Really helpful! (also, thanks for the DM Simon).

To address some of your points:

With regards to the MGB, I'll start a list of suitable parts to retain and refurbish. Andy Jennings seem really clued up on the Hawk, so that will help. I'm hoping there's a deal to be done as they are welcome to everything I don't need.

On the engine, I'm confident working on the ancillaries but not getting into guts of the engine. On that basis, I was looking at 'long block' or fully dressed 302 from the likes of BluePrint or ATK. The former even offer one with a T5. They're not as expensive as I expected, so I'm wondering what I'm missing, as most people don't seem to go down that route?

Although I'm not after high end performance, I'm very into the 'Cobra story' around the relationship between AC and Shelby, so it's important to me to marry a British chassis with an American Ford lump.

Good idea about ordering the long lead items from Gerry. I'll do that as soon as I've paid my deposit (I'm currently only on the pre-list that feeds the official order book).

With regards to the rear end, my thinking is the MGB Salisbury is very original, so why switch to a Jag. Maybe I'll change my mind when it comes to the drive!

My question around CSX vs COB was what are the differences apart from LHD/RHD. e.g. Smiths gauges on COB and Stewart Warner on some CSX.

On seat position, I'm already convinced I'll need to lose the runners to maintain leg room (I'm a touch under six foot).

On the weather equipment - yes, I'll definitely get a soft top. I'm just not going for the hard top option.

I like you idea about keeping it simple and then making changes in subsequent winters. I also think you make an excellent point about the paint. I'd like it good, but not show-car standard. With some cars, it's almost relief when you get the first few blemishes because it stops the panic when you find a chip! In fact, with my '57 Zephyr, I've been thinking it needs a respray for years, but the majority of people who see the car say "wow it's immaculate". And while I like the idea of the Hawk being worth more than I spend, I'll probably never sell the car and it will ultimately go to my daughter as a stablemate for her Mustang.

Further feedback welcome. I've got a long time to plan this!

Many thanks again,
David
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Migge
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Re: First thoughts and lots of questions...

Post by Migge »

Although I'm not after high end performance, I'm very into the 'Cobra story' around the relationship between AC and Shelby, so it's important to me to marry a British chassis with an American Ford lump.

With regards to the rear end, my thinking is the MGB Salisbury is very original, so why switch to a Jag. Maybe I'll change my mind when it comes to the drive!

Cobras never had a live axle!
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David_W
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Re: First thoughts and lots of questions...

Post by David_W »

Cobras never had a live axle!


Ah OK. I read Salisbury and assumed it was the same as MGB, rather than Salisbury 4HU. So I assume the popularity of using the MGB part is more around getting the age related plate in the bag.

Thanks
David
Kenven
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Re: First thoughts and lots of questions...

Post by Kenven »

I recall that the DVLA want to have photo evidence of you dismantling the MGB. I got mine in 2017 and it was already in place around that time. I wasn't aware, so hadn't taken pics, but had updated the V5 details and it was OK then but worth checking out. I got cheap Mazda MX5 seats, which were fine, although it doesn't leave much room (I'm 6' 2" so probably explains it!) If you don't want to carve up Gerry's dash for an IVA layout, I cobbled a ply dash which was cheap and was fine and didn't trim the car until after IVA so the seat belt mounting et al was clearly visible. worth having a good read about the IVA stories on here, but the IVA seem to be beefing them up most of the time, so worth keeping in with the appropriate family member. Good luck
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David_W
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Re: First thoughts and lots of questions...

Post by David_W »

Thanks. Good advice. We've had the MGB for 40 years! It's on SORN in my wife's name. I'm wondering if that means I have to register the Hawk in her name, or flip the MG to me before I start. So many things to think about but luckily I have time! :lol:
StuBaker
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Re: First thoughts and lots of questions...

Post by StuBaker »

You'll be fine with MX5 seats for IVA but you'll need goggles and a crash helmet when you drive!!
Your head will be a fly magnet. Another post IVA mod. By all accounts Gerry's seats are good but I've not yet had the pleasure...
For age related emissions you need an early block. I guess Blueprint and ATK use newer blocks. Real Steel & Roadcraft are good and try Hilltop Services.
There's a couple of motors on ebay right now too.
Sounds to me like you need a bit more exposure to 289 Nerds. Try the NEC in November. You'll get loads of info.
If you go for the 'B' axle you can always swap to Jag later, with outboard brakes. It's a bit (lots) more expensive. And more complicated.
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David_W
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Re: First thoughts and lots of questions...

Post by David_W »

StuBaker wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:24 pm For age related emissions you need an early block. I guess Blueprint and ATK use newer blocks. Real Steel & Roadcraft are good and try Hilltop Services.
There's a couple of motors on ebay right now too.
Thanks Stu, more sound advice. With regards to emissions, the rules around the age of the engine block seem very complicated! I'll read up on it and talk to my Brother-in-law, as part of his role at DVSA is to inspect MOT stations.

Real Steel, Roadcraft and Hilltop all look good. I've only use Real Steel before (mainly sheet metal for the Mustang). All three are roughly 75 miles from my house, so I have good options within striking distance.
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