Classic cars are not historic says FIVA

[Roger King]

In the UK we don't get the choice, Karl. For genuine old cars, it's historic or nothing. For kit converted cars, it's a lottery - some get historic taxation class (£0), some get the taxation class of the date of registration, and pay tax. Currently there is no restriction on use for any of these classes.
I have a friend in France who has a '63 Healey 3000. He can choose - Historic, at zero or low taxation (can't remember the detail), but with restrictions on how much he can use it - or non-historic, with more expensive annual taxation but no restrictions on use. The choice seems a reasonable compromise to me.

[Karl]

So you are saying, Roger, every bread and butter car, when it is 35 years old, no matter what state it is in, is historic and pays no tax?
You live in automobile paradise then!

[Roger King]

That's correct.
However, last year (or it may have been the year before), the system changed slightly. Many years ago we used to have a rolling tax exemption, so that as each car reached 21 years old it automatically became tax-exempt. A change of government saw this stop, with tax-exemption frozen at 1972. A year or so back, the rolling exemption was brought back - but now when your car reaches 40 years old (i.e. now any car pre-1976), you have to apply for a change of taxation class, it doesn't happen automatically like it used to. But yes, now any car over 40 years old does not pay any tax. And there's no extra test, like your TÜV.
What I don't know, is what happens now with a 40 year-old-car if you DON'T make this application for historic status. I don't know anyone who hasn't applied, so I can't tell you if that car carries on as before, non-historic and still paying tax, or if it becomes unregistered.
I have three historics - Cobra, Mustang and Mini. No tax on any of them, and just an MOT test the same as any other car. Actually, the MOT is easier, as there's no emissions tests on any of them - they can't backdate legislation to apply to an older car. The only time this has ever happened in the UK was with the introduction of windscreen washer regulations, which were backdated to apply to ALL cars with windscreen wipers. Even trafficator arm indicators, alone without flashers, are perfectly legal if the car was built with them and complied with UK regulations on the date it was built.*And I do not believe there is any evidence at all to show these older cars, built to older safety regulations, are any more dangerous to anyone than modern cars. Particularly modern cars being driven by young parents who are talking on the phone or adjusting their make-up at the same time as controlling a car-load of noisy kids.
Yes, we have it very easy indeed. And I hope we can fight tooth and nail to KEEP IT this easy. We do not need FIVA interfering!!

*The Mustang did require modification to amber indicators, as when it was built in the US in 1968 it was given red rear indicators. UK regs at that time required amber indicators (post-1965), so it was not compliant with UK law when it was new - because it was built in the US!

[catsx11]

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[peterc]

Guys can I correct a previous statement.
You do get historic status on a rebuilt older car, it just needs a minimum of 5 major parts from the donor and be old enough to meet the historic date.
Mine was built from a 67 car and has been historic since its SVA and subsequent registration

Officially 'kit cars' are Caterhams and the like, e.g. A complete car in a component form.
Radically altered vehicles are DVLA's definition for rebodied cars.

Peter C

[StewbieC]

And there in lies the problem as the build date is later than the historic cut off date. Mine was also built using a 67 B and mines a PLG owing to the build and registration date and not the year of the donor.

[peterc]

Sorry I'm confused as my log book confirms that it was re-registered in 1999 but still qualified as historic as it came from the 67 donor.
Peter C

[Roger King]

Chaps, as has been said before, it depended entirely on which local office you used and who was doing the forms that day. I have registered two Hawk 289s within 2-3 weeks of each other at different offices, with the same age of donor car. One got historic, the other didn't.
I would presume that now the local offices have gone and registration is done centrally, it is now consistent - but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

[StewbieC]

Sorry I'm confused as my log book confirms that it was re-registered in 1999 but still qualified as historic as it came from the 67 donor.
Peter C

Did you get a new registration, or an alternative registration from the same year?

Without trying to draw attention to the situation, this whole mess has been dusted up by the revenue who are following up on vehicles built after the historic status cut off that aren't paying road tax. It is the only real driver in this country and all the other factors mentioned are as a result of them trying to sort the quagmire out. Hence the discussion about how original is the original historic car, if it has been modified too much it will need an IVA and possible Q plate etc etc. JMHO of course
I'd be very surprised if anyone has built and correctly registered a replica on an age related plate in the last 5 years and got historic status.

[agnoraan]

Guys can I correct a previous statement.
You do get historic status on a rebuilt older car, it just needs a minimum of 5 major parts from the donor and be old enough to meet the historic date.
Mine was built from a 67 car and has been historic since its SVA and subsequent registration

Officially 'kit cars' are Caterhams and the like, e.g. A complete car in a component form.
Radically altered vehicles are DVLA's definition for rebodied cars.

Peter C

Hi Peter, I'm sorry, but that's not strictly true. You say "You do get historic status on a rebuilt older car, it just needs a minimum of 5 major parts from the donor and be old enough to meet the historic date".

If you restore a classic and for it to gain an age related plate and for it to have historic classiification, you have to conform to these guidelines

DVLA QUOTE:_
It can only recognise your vehicle as a reconstructed classic vehicle if it meets certain criteria. It must be:

Built from genuine period components from more than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification as the original vehicle
A true reflection of the marque

The appropriate vehicle owners’ club for the vehicle type (‘marque’) must inspect the vehicle and confirm in writing that it:
Has been inspected
Is a true reflection of the marque
Is comprised of genuine period components all over 25 years old
They must also give manufacture dates for the major components.

DVLA will assign an age-related registration number to the vehicle based on the youngest component used.

New or replica parts

Your vehicle won’t get an age-related registration number if it includes new or replica parts. DVLA will give your vehicle a ‘Q’ prefix registration number. Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.

The worrying thing in the above are the sentences "is a true reflection of the marque and is comprised of genuine period components all over 25 years old" I see that as the means to define what is or isn't a historic vehicle and a way of weeding out anything that doesn't fall into the historic classification. It also says that you cannot have an age related plate if the vehicle has new or replica parts, ...well that's all of our type of cars then. ....... Tin foil hat securely fitted.

However, no matter which way we look at it, a Cobra replica isn't a rebuilt older car as above, it's a new chassis and body, fitted with older parts. This falls into the category of a "kit converted vehicle", which most of our cars are. The DVLA categorise this as "new parts added to an existing vehicle, or old parts added to a new kit", which should go for an IVA test, or previously an SVA. As you say Peter, a kit car is one that has been built from all new parts and would be assigned a new registration after an IVA test. However, a Cobra replica shouldn't really have historic status as it doesn't fulfil the above criteria. In the past the various DVLA offices weren't totally au fait with their own rules and as such misunderstood the categories a vehicle should be in.

A "rebodied car" is not DVLA's definition of a radically altered car. A rebodied car is exactly that, in that it's a chassis, that has zero modifications carried out to it ie no extra bracing, or having outriggers etc removed, which then has a different body fitted to that chassis. It also needs to go for inspection, but doesn't have the full IVA test carried out. The inspection is to ensure that there are no modifications to the chassis, engine, suspension, brakes etc, the only change being that it has a different body fitted.

This is now becoming a way for some of the hot rodders to circumvent IVA. The Reliant Scimitar chassis is now much sought after as you can fit some of the hot rod bodies directly to them as the wheelbase is the same.

A radically altered vehicle, or a kit converted vehicle, if it doesn't comply to the eight point rule, would require an IVA test. Any radical vehicle that has the monocoque modified in any way would also need an IVA test, As soon as a monocoque is modified in any way it's straight for a test, do not pass go!

The eight points are comprised of the following

Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5
Suspension (front and back) - original 2
Axles (both) - original 2
Transmission - original 2
Steering assembly - original 2

Lets just hope that things don't change too dramatically in the coming years, though things do seem to be getting tighter from what I've read and been told. The worst case scenario would be if they were to check all historically registered or modified vehicles at MOT time, to see if they are what they purport to be. I've been told that there is a likelyhood of MOT's having the question "has this vehicle been modified?" added to the test questionnaire

cheers...NIge







cheers...Nige.