The future of replica cars in the UK

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amulheirn
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The future of replica cars in the UK

Post by amulheirn »

I've been having a few idle thoughts about this and thought I would ask for some opinions: There have been quite a few threads about impending legislation which might affect the use of cars like ours in the UK, so this is obviously a subject close to our hearts. I think there are two sides to this:
  1. The UK 'historic' car industry is estimated by FBHVC in their 2016 survey to be worth £5.5Bn. I can't find information on the value of the kit car industry to the economy, but it is a good assumption to make that the two industries combined make a large contribution, keep lots of people employed and represent a major hobby.
  2. On the flip side, progress is a good thing for our health and the environment - and I'd be happy to do a daily commute in an electric car, keeping the V8 for the weekends. (I appreciate this may not be a view everyone shares).
There is representation for classic car owners in the form of FBHVC and the Parliamentary Historic Vehicles group, but the replica car industry seems under-represented to me. I don't know of any organisation that would campaign on behalf of the owners or makers of these vehicles.

There's no getting away from the fact that a replica is not the same as the real thing, but good replicas of low-volume production cars bring the enjoyment of these vehicles to a wider audience. Additionally, replica building (and the minutely-detailed research that is undertaken in the process) serves to preserve the understanding of these cars, their history and construction. Some replica-building tasks develop transferable skills that are applicable to classic car restoration. And finally, the knowledge that some people have acquired and the cars they have constructed could reasonably be considered to be encyclopaedic in nature.

I've always thought that if you've got a problem, you'd better get off your backside and do something about it. If the proposed Norwegian ban on combustion engines were proposed in the UK, it is likely that FBHVC would lobby for exemptions for classics, but that might leave owners of replica cars high and dry without representation - or scrabbling around to achieve representation at the last minute. In most legislative situations, compromise is inevitable. Getting a compromise that works in our favour requires that we stick our oar into the process rather than complaining from the sidelines.

A few questions for discussion:
  • What other benefits of the replica or kit car industry have I not thought about?
  • Do we think a representative body for such vehicles is worthwhile?
  • If so, what would such a body do?
  • Who would it represent? All kit cars, or some hard-to-determine definition of a 'replica'?
Would be interested in your thoughts.

Andrew
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David Large
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Re: The future of replica cars in the UK

Post by David Large »

Andrew,

I don't have any answers to your questions, but we are, as a club, about to join the FBHVC (when I get round to it) in the hope that it will:
1) Make us more aware of what is going on
2) Maybe create some impact within the FBHVC as to the presence of replica cars.

regards


David
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Roger King
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Re: The future of replica cars in the UK

Post by Roger King »

This discussion always depresses me. Two big reasons for this:

1) All systems are finely balanced, that's how they work. The system relating to fuel supply is just such a system - so finely balanced, that the fuel provision industry relies on people doing their shopping at petrol stations (sorry, service stations) to bring in the profits - they don't rely on fuel sales any more as it's taxed too highly to allow a decent profit margin. Any tipping of this balance, such as a proliferation of the great con trick that is the politically-favoured but unsustainable electric vehicle, will result in a sudden drop in petrol availability which could be out of all proportion. How quickly did 5-star disappear? How quickly did leaded vanish, despite promises to the contrary? The fuel industry will not be interested in keeping older vehicles running, and the motor industry, with the support of the government, will do everything to get us to buy the latest offering. If there was a ban on IC engines - even just new ones - the entire fuel supply system would disappear very quickly indeed. Although I do find it interesting that Norway, a country whose economy is built entirely on oil, is planning this....

2) The value of the classic car industry, at £6bn or whatever the FBHVC survey showed, will be as nothing to the government. The NHS industry is worth over £100bn, and they are intent on destroying that.

We have to keep an eye on what's going on and stay involved, as best as possible. I'd say the kit-car or replica industry is pretty close to the classic industry, as both use the same powerplants. I think the FBHVC is the best bet we have - at least the government listens to them, a bit. Building kitcars in the future is not going to be easy, though, as the regulations progress. As a worst-case scenario (and given petrol availability), historics will get mileage restrictions on usage, and replicas which are not historic but have engines that are not emissions-tested will be banned from, or heavily taxed in, the coming Low Emission Zones which may spread like wildfire as the fashion for them takes hold.

Sorry to be such a ray of sunshine. And I know there are people who won't agree with me. I would be so, so happy to be deprived of the opportunity to say 'told you so' in a few years time, but having stood alone for decades now telling anyone who would listen that diesel is the fuel of the devil, and being dismissed out of hand, I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: The future of replica cars in the UK

Post by amulheirn »

All good points, Roger.

I'm no expert on the NHS, but I think the main difference between it and the classic/component car industry is that the former is a government-run institution that private enterprise makes large profits from supplying. (Never dealt with the NHS for my job, but I do know that some companies apply unethically large margins on sales to government departments - I assume the NHS is the same.) The kit and classic car industry is already a private enterprise, so although its headline figure is smaller, it is not one big target representing opportunity for profit through creeping privatisation.

But back on the subject - I think there are reasons to be positive, and staying involved is a way to do that. Although little more than a big roller-skate at present, I want the car I'm making to be inheritable (and usable) by my daughter one day.

So you think FBHVC is the best route - and you're probably right. They're already established, but I'm not sure what they do for kit cars. Having had a quick look I notice the Gentry Register and the NG Owners Club are members. Maybe once we're a member we should ask about forming a special-interest sub-group. Most kit cars don't really appeal to me, but what other people choose to drive is their business - I wouldn't mind banding together with other clubs to pursue our common interest.

I've half a mind to post my original thoughts on http://www.madabout-kitcars.com or maybe write to a kit-car and a hot-rod magazine to see what support there is for this. What do you think?
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Re: The future of replica cars in the UK

Post by Roger King »

I am prepared to argue all day and in fine detail about the NHS, having been both a clinician and an NHSE advisor - but probably best not here!

I agree with your remarks completely, Andrew. We have to stay involved, and I feel absolutely passionate about this. There is so much misinformation, spin and misunderstanding around this hobby. The biggest problem is that classics (and replicas, even more so) are a tiny minority of road users, and can get caught up in legislation that was not aimed at us because we were not considered when it was drawn up.
I believe properly-registered replicas and historics can be considered as one group, as the replica is a government-sanctioned new car (IVA pass) using a classic engine (emissions test exempt), and therefore the FBHVC is the appropriate body. I have been a personal member of the FBHVC for several years, but I do have some concerns regarding it. I have offered my services to the secretary on a number of occasions on a voluntary basis but have never heard back (maybe they read this forum?). The Federation had a reputation for leaning towards the veteran and vintage fraternity with expensive cars and low mileages, but reading the mag and watching the websites etc. I think this is changing. The Federation is promoting a series of apprenticeships for young folk in car restoration and is keen to encourage the involvement of younger people which is all to the good, and I feel more encouraged by their approach since the recent survey.

I think it might be useful to consult others on the matter - I'd say do so by all means, probably best on an informal personal level.
Sorry the last post was a tad negative - the thought of having a garage full of expensive inanimate sculptures keeps me awake at nights!
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Re: The future of replica cars in the UK

Post by Tapped »

To be fair, the Norwegian movement is to prevent (or severely discourage) the sale of new cars with IC engines, not to seek to prevent the use of existing ones.

Gov'ts tend to shy away from banning things that already exist, so I suspect we'll still be able to use the ones we have, whatever happens
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Roger King
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Re: The future of replica cars in the UK

Post by Roger King »

...but that argument falls into the trap of ignoring the finely balanced fuel supply situation. If the profit from petrol sales begins to fall, as it will, the suppliers will drop it like a hot brick, and owners of petrol cars will get caught in a vicious circle as more owners give up and buy alternatives. Norway also has a huge hydroelectric industry which they will no doubt rely on for their electricity, so I reckon petrol will disappear pretty quickly. Maybe we will end up buying it from the chemist by the single gallon, as was done at the beginning of the C20th!!
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Re: The future of replica cars in the UK

Post by allan horsfall »

Roger,

I think you underestimate the resiliance and resources of the oil industry. The current instability in the market has'nt got anything to do with supply shortages, its being driven by the Saudis attempt to derail the US fracking industry, so they are driving the prices below its cost effectiveness, last time I checked that was around $52 a barrel.
Although the N. Sea is now on the downturn, its a minow compared with Russia, Middle East, Venezuala, Nigeria etc. and when the traditional oil sources do start to dry up then the fracking will come in, and they hav'nt started on offshore fracking yet? The overall resources are still phenominal.

I've asked myself the same question, especially in relation to the value of classic cars that may not be able to move in the future. But the oil we have will see me out and more for years to come.

Its polution and legislation that will be the major mover in any changes effecting us petrol heads.

Regards
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Re: The future of replica cars in the UK

Post by Roger King »

Allan, I have no doubt oil will be around for a long time - one of my wife's oldest friends is a senior exploration engineer for BP, and he has set my mind at rest on that score several times.
It's not the resource, production or politics that concerns me - it's the filling station supply chain. That is where the fine balance is - their profit is tiny, made so principally by the huge taxation element of the cost of petrol imposed by government in this country. That's why most filling stations have a supermarket bolted on the side these days - that's where the real profit is. I really can't see the government reducing taxation on fuel to support a (perceived) dwindling ICE market as the electric sector gets bigger. Therefore, the filling station profits will get even smaller, they will stop investing in supplying something that is not making them a profit and in no time at all it will have gone. Then, of course, as 'electric' gets bigger the generating system falls over instead (it's already nearly at failing point) - and anyway the government will slap a huge tax on electric propulsion.
I am deliberately looking at a worst-case scenario here, but either way I don't think the future looks good.
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Re: The future of replica cars in the UK

Post by agnoraan »

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Roger, it seems that whether we like it or not, the future is going to be filled with electric powered, autonomous cars. It was only a very short time ago that we even heard of electric cars possibly becoming mainstream, now that's all we seem to hear about in the press. None of the manufacturers seem to have actually asked the populace if this is what they want, rather, it seems to be driven by the manufacturers to try to beat the next person that makes these damned electric cars.

As to Historic cars, I really do feel that it's going to turn into an utter nightmare to drive them as we do now. From what I've heard, things are moving along at a bit of a pace and the results from the proposals re Vehicles of Historical Interest are due to be published next month by the Government.

Andrew, the FBVHC is the only body in liason with the Government regarding possible legislation, and as has been said, they are predominantly driven by their members who own vintage and veteran cars. Unfortunately for us, these cars cover very little mileage annualy. There was another independant body set up called ACE (Association of Car Enthusiasts) who were very active in lobbying our MP's and MEP's. They approached all of the "big players" involved with the motoring manufacturers and suppliers to get to get them to form a trade organisation similar to SEMA in the USA, to save them, and us, from being ignored. It came to nothing unfortunately. There has been total apathy from virtually everyone, including the motoring magazines, who have done absolutley nothing to try to help the situation. ACE has now closed its doors after a good innings of ten plus years, but the disbelief and negativity from virtually all quarters towards ACE meant that they could no longer continue. They were constantly accused of scaremongering and telling untruths. This couldn't have been further from the truth. The reality is that they were there to support the motorist and subsequent industries, by informing them of future legislation and how it would affect everyone involved with alternative motoring, but people preferred to believe it would never happen. Unfortunately, it's now too late and those nay sayers now realise that what ACE was saying is now coming true.

Sorry for the doom and gloom, but I can't see that even the FBVHC would be able to influence the government, especially for such a niche market as kit cars and modified vehicles, they're not really on their radar...........electric cars are the way of the future, and I feel that everything the Government is doing will point that way :cry: :cry: :cry:

Nige
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