I did write a reply but it disappeared.
So here goes again.
First and most importantly as a duly elected committee member we should respect Paul's comments especially as he went to the trouble of discussing the issue with the MSA.
So for the foreseeable future all 289 tours should still be limited to 12 cars.
However I can't help thinking that the MSA will only ever relate their view and consider everything as a form of motor sporting event and not consider it a social outing/ gathering.
So bearing mind that Colin's event is some way off I suggest we investigate obtaining an independant documented ruling on what we can or cannot do with regards to our events. I know you will say it's playing semantics but clearly if we need to change the name or description of our event to take it away from a 12 car ruling then surely that's what we need to do.
So guys let's work together to see if we can resolve this difficulty.
Peter C
T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018
Thank you Peter.
These regulations have been laid down by the Department of Transport and they have appointed the RAC/MSA to administer them on their behalf.
Nowhere does it state that they only apply to competitive or trials events. They apply to ANY event taking place on the public highway except in the cases of the listed exceptions.
Depending on the size of the event, or the numbers involved, the MSA would decide what level of authorisation was required and who would need to be involved.
Whether or not the individual or the club is an MSA member is irrelevant. As stated, the MSA are simply administering the legislation on behalf of the DoT.
Nige, you mentioned Cranleigh and the queues of cars go get in. You can be pretty certain that the local authorities, including the police would have been informed well in advance and they would have had their input into how the traffic was managed. Just because there weren't people walking around with MSA badges on, doesn't mean they hadn't been involved somewhere down the line.
To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying that we definitely need approval or a Certificate of Exemption, but I do want a definitive written statement from the MSA if we don't need either one.
There is an event classification called a "social run", which it may fall under:
https://www.msauk.org/Clubs/FAQ/FAQ-Cer ... -Exemption
Paul
These regulations have been laid down by the Department of Transport and they have appointed the RAC/MSA to administer them on their behalf.
Nowhere does it state that they only apply to competitive or trials events. They apply to ANY event taking place on the public highway except in the cases of the listed exceptions.
Depending on the size of the event, or the numbers involved, the MSA would decide what level of authorisation was required and who would need to be involved.
Whether or not the individual or the club is an MSA member is irrelevant. As stated, the MSA are simply administering the legislation on behalf of the DoT.
Nige, you mentioned Cranleigh and the queues of cars go get in. You can be pretty certain that the local authorities, including the police would have been informed well in advance and they would have had their input into how the traffic was managed. Just because there weren't people walking around with MSA badges on, doesn't mean they hadn't been involved somewhere down the line.
To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying that we definitely need approval or a Certificate of Exemption, but I do want a definitive written statement from the MSA if we don't need either one.
There is an event classification called a "social run", which it may fall under:
https://www.msauk.org/Clubs/FAQ/FAQ-Cer ... -Exemption
Paul
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018
Er - I think I said that a page or two ago...
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018
Sorry Roger, I missed that post.
Paul
Paul
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018
Social Run:
'A non-competitive run for likeminded participants where there is no other purpose than the camaraderie of motoring in company to a predetermined point and which is not within the jurisdiction of the MSA'.
The MSA Yearbook (2017 edition), (B) Nomenclature and Definitions, p.60
'A non-competitive run for likeminded participants where there is no other purpose than the camaraderie of motoring in company to a predetermined point and which is not within the jurisdiction of the MSA'.
The MSA Yearbook (2017 edition), (B) Nomenclature and Definitions, p.60
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018
That looks pretty convincing to me Roger. Thank you for the clarification. Let's see if the MSA reply to me with similar words.Roger King wrote:Social Run:
'A non-competitive run for likeminded participants where there is no other purpose than the camaraderie of motoring in company to a predetermined point and which is not within the jurisdiction of the MSA'.
The MSA Yearbook (2017 edition), (B) Nomenclature and Definitions, p.60
Colin
"How you see yourself is all very well, but it's how others see you that will determine the results you get as a leader!"
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018
Sensible to see what they say, as the somewhat ambiguous wording seems to leave it up to the organiser of the social run to decide whether or not it is within the jurisdiction of the MSA or not!Colin Newbold wrote:That looks pretty convincing to me Roger. Thank you for the clarification. Let's see if the MSA reply to me with similar words.Roger King wrote:Social Run:
'A non-competitive run for likeminded participants where there is no other purpose than the camaraderie of motoring in company to a predetermined point and which is not within the jurisdiction of the MSA'.
The MSA Yearbook (2017 edition), (B) Nomenclature and Definitions, p.60
Colin
Still, that's what it says in my shiny new copy of this year's regs. That particular paragraph is a recent change, too, from 2014. I'm talking to the ECTC directors tomorrow so I'll try to find out how the Spring- and EuroClassics work it, as they aim for 30 cars (maybe more) for both. They are definitely Touring Assemblies, but I don't think they're very much more onerous to run. The cost per car is only two or three quid.
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018
Agreed, that is much clearer and I'm happy with that.
The original PDF document was ambiguous but that is much clearer.
If you read the definition of a "Touring Assembly" in isolation of the "Social Run" definition, one or more of the points do apply to our runs, which would, apparently, therefore require a CoE. I accept that we operate a Social Run, but I'm still unclear in my own mind as to precisely why it is such irrespective of the number of cars.
My role in this is to safeguard the interests of the club, its committee and its members. I wasn't intending to be or wanting to be a kill-joy.
Thank you Roger.
The original PDF document was ambiguous but that is much clearer.
If you read the definition of a "Touring Assembly" in isolation of the "Social Run" definition, one or more of the points do apply to our runs, which would, apparently, therefore require a CoE. I accept that we operate a Social Run, but I'm still unclear in my own mind as to precisely why it is such irrespective of the number of cars.
My role in this is to safeguard the interests of the club, its committee and its members. I wasn't intending to be or wanting to be a kill-joy.
Thank you Roger.
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Re: T289R Sussex Downs Road Trip - 2018
I promised to share with you the (very rapid!) response from my contact at the MSA:
"Hi Colin,
Unfortunately as The 289 Register are not an MSA Registered Club they do not fall under our remit, therefore they would not need to apply for Permits from the MSA.
As a non-competitive event on the public highway, you are also not limited to 12 vehicles and do not need to apply for Route Authorisation either. For more information please visit the Route Authorisation page/FAQ on the MSA website:
https://www.msauk.org/Resource-Centre/R ... horisation
Kind Regards
James Tattersall
Competitions & Clubs Administrator
Motor Sports Association, Riverside Park, Colnbrook, SL3 0HG"
I believe, ladies and gentlemen, that this clarifies the situation ONCE AND FOR ALL! I therefore propose, with the Chairman's agreement, to draw a line under the 'legalities' discussion and welcome one and all (up to 20 cars) to our Sussex Down Road Trip, May 2018. The favoured weekend seems to be:
Friday 11th May (arrival any time in the afternoon/early evening) ...
...until...
...Monday 14th May (departure after breakfast).
I should be able to get one hotel for all three nights (11/12/13) on a dinner, bed and breakfast basis.
As already posted, I'm already up to 19 provisional sign-ups so there's room for just one more car. Tomorrow (or over the weekend) I will publish a provisional list of participants in our "Touring Assembly/Social Tour".
Hooray!!
Colin
"Hi Colin,
Unfortunately as The 289 Register are not an MSA Registered Club they do not fall under our remit, therefore they would not need to apply for Permits from the MSA.
As a non-competitive event on the public highway, you are also not limited to 12 vehicles and do not need to apply for Route Authorisation either. For more information please visit the Route Authorisation page/FAQ on the MSA website:
https://www.msauk.org/Resource-Centre/R ... horisation
Kind Regards
James Tattersall
Competitions & Clubs Administrator
Motor Sports Association, Riverside Park, Colnbrook, SL3 0HG"
I believe, ladies and gentlemen, that this clarifies the situation ONCE AND FOR ALL! I therefore propose, with the Chairman's agreement, to draw a line under the 'legalities' discussion and welcome one and all (up to 20 cars) to our Sussex Down Road Trip, May 2018. The favoured weekend seems to be:
Friday 11th May (arrival any time in the afternoon/early evening) ...
...until...
...Monday 14th May (departure after breakfast).
I should be able to get one hotel for all three nights (11/12/13) on a dinner, bed and breakfast basis.
As already posted, I'm already up to 19 provisional sign-ups so there's room for just one more car. Tomorrow (or over the weekend) I will publish a provisional list of participants in our "Touring Assembly/Social Tour".
Hooray!!
Colin
"How you see yourself is all very well, but it's how others see you that will determine the results you get as a leader!"