Coolant!
Coolant!
So my build is nearing the end and need to add some coolant for the first time ! Is it best to go straight to pressure free fluid or stick to traditional antifreeze and water? Pressure free is expensive to find leaks, but I intended to go that route eventually. Recommendations??
Built St Piran Hawk289FIA in Scotland!
Re: Coolant!
Hi John,
Glad to hear things are coming on well. Regarding the waterless coolant, as far as I am aware you must purge all water from the system before using it and therefore it would probably be better to go directly to waterless. I'm pretty certain you won't have any catastrophic leaks from a new engine and any leaks will be minimal and only need tweeking of hose clips etc.
Glad to hear things are coming on well. Regarding the waterless coolant, as far as I am aware you must purge all water from the system before using it and therefore it would probably be better to go directly to waterless. I'm pretty certain you won't have any catastrophic leaks from a new engine and any leaks will be minimal and only need tweeking of hose clips etc.
Cheers, Clive.
(If I'm not here I'm in my workshop or on the golf course!)
(If I'm not here I'm in my workshop or on the golf course!)
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nikbj68
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Re: Coolant!
Consider Castrol 4Life instead of Evans, significantly cheaper, but appears to have the same boil/freezing points!
Hawk 289 FiA...AT LAST!!!
Re: Coolant!
The 4Life coolant is used straight from the container without adding water & has a quoted life of approx ten years.
Dodger.
Still looking for the last open road.
Still looking for the last open road.
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Roger King
- Posts: 4396
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- Location: St Ives, Cambs
Re: Coolant!
Oooh, exciting - first fire up!
I'd go straight to the Evans, it's a real pain and a lot more expensive to convert to it later. I used to run Forlife in my Healeys but it doesn't give the same degree of corrosion protection as Evans, and I believe the boiling point is lower. Also any slight weeps etc. leave a dodgy-looking pink stain. As ever in life, you get what you pay for: I'd say it probably depends on how long you intend keeping the car.
A few tips:
1 - I wouldn't start off with a zero pressure cap, I'd run around 7psi (and in fact still do on my Cobra, but that's mostly because I want the correct appearance rad cap...). Bear in mind that neat coolant, of any variety (Forlife included), is much better at finding leaks than a water mix. You want to find those weak connections now, not in a car park somewhere miles from home.
2 - Keep the rad cap on whilst doing your cam break-in (which assuming a new engine build is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL). There will be air pockets circulating which will cause what the Yanks call a 'burp' out of the filler hole if you don't have a cap on, which can have a poor outcome if the coolant gets on a hot (and it will get very hot, cherry red probably) exhaust. Please don't ask how I know.
3 - If you have a heater, either make sure you have COMPLETELY filled the heater circuit by bleeding it from a hose, or bypass it for now. You must have the system properly full, and depending on configuration it can be difficult to tell if it is or not. Level in the tank is not a reliable indication. For my Cobra, I fill the tank with most of the coolant with the top hose bleeder screw removed and the highest heater hose disconnected. Before it overflows from either of these, I replace the filler cap and switch to using a funnel to backfill the system from the disconnected heater hose. As soon as coolant starts to overflow from the bleeder screw, I close the screw and reconnect the heater hose. My system takes an extra 1-2 litres this way and I get no airlocks.
Remember mine is an original Cobra system and not exactly the same as a Hawk's (where the header tank is in the top hose), but I think the same considerations apply.
Not wishing to teach grandmothers etc., but do you know how to do a cam break-in?
Roger
I'd go straight to the Evans, it's a real pain and a lot more expensive to convert to it later. I used to run Forlife in my Healeys but it doesn't give the same degree of corrosion protection as Evans, and I believe the boiling point is lower. Also any slight weeps etc. leave a dodgy-looking pink stain. As ever in life, you get what you pay for: I'd say it probably depends on how long you intend keeping the car.
A few tips:
1 - I wouldn't start off with a zero pressure cap, I'd run around 7psi (and in fact still do on my Cobra, but that's mostly because I want the correct appearance rad cap...). Bear in mind that neat coolant, of any variety (Forlife included), is much better at finding leaks than a water mix. You want to find those weak connections now, not in a car park somewhere miles from home.
2 - Keep the rad cap on whilst doing your cam break-in (which assuming a new engine build is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL). There will be air pockets circulating which will cause what the Yanks call a 'burp' out of the filler hole if you don't have a cap on, which can have a poor outcome if the coolant gets on a hot (and it will get very hot, cherry red probably) exhaust. Please don't ask how I know.
3 - If you have a heater, either make sure you have COMPLETELY filled the heater circuit by bleeding it from a hose, or bypass it for now. You must have the system properly full, and depending on configuration it can be difficult to tell if it is or not. Level in the tank is not a reliable indication. For my Cobra, I fill the tank with most of the coolant with the top hose bleeder screw removed and the highest heater hose disconnected. Before it overflows from either of these, I replace the filler cap and switch to using a funnel to backfill the system from the disconnected heater hose. As soon as coolant starts to overflow from the bleeder screw, I close the screw and reconnect the heater hose. My system takes an extra 1-2 litres this way and I get no airlocks.
Remember mine is an original Cobra system and not exactly the same as a Hawk's (where the header tank is in the top hose), but I think the same considerations apply.
Not wishing to teach grandmothers etc., but do you know how to do a cam break-in?
Roger
Re: Coolant!
Thanks for the responses .... I will go Evans!
Roger no worries about grand mothers here... My engine builder said nothing about cam run in. His instructions coupled to some help from Opie oils informed me of oil needs and run in but nothing specific about the cams. What should it entail?
Roger no worries about grand mothers here... My engine builder said nothing about cam run in. His instructions coupled to some help from Opie oils informed me of oil needs and run in but nothing specific about the cams. What should it entail?
Built St Piran Hawk289FIA in Scotland!
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Roger King
- Posts: 4396
- Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:29 pm
- Location: St Ives, Cambs
Re: Coolant!
First off, do you need to do one? Do you have a new camshaft? If so, is it a flat-tappet cam (hydraulic or solid lifter) or a roller cam? - and that means for roller lifters, not roller rockers which make no difference. If it's a new flat-tappet cam, you need to do a break-in. No, you HAVE to do a break-in. I'm assuming Ford engine, but the engineering's the same for any.
This is a huge topic with many opinions and traditions. Before you do anything, it's worth checking that your valvetrain geometry is correct. Probably the most important part of this check is that the rockers are centred on the valve stems, to help reduce wear on the valve stems and valve guides. Take the plugs out and back the rockers off (or the front-most rocker on each bank, at any rate). mark the top of the valve with a black permanent marker pen and carefully reassemble the rocker, setting to the clearance for your spec. Turn the engine over by hand 3 or 4 revolutions and carfully disassemble the rocker - you should have a shiny patch in the centre of the valve stem, indicating correct alignment. If it's offset towards the outside of the head, your pushrods are too long - if towards the intake side, they are too short. You will need to get an adjustable vernier pushrod to measure the correct length and replace the pushrods for the correct size.
With regard to the break-in itself, the basics ore outlined here:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2011/04 ... procedure/
It is dumb to use a cheapo oil here, just because you're going to chuck it after 30 minutes. I don't know how much your engine cost, but good quality oil is cheap insurance. At the very least you absolutely MUST change the filter as soon as you've done the break-in. I do 4 oil and filter changes in the first 250-300 miles with a new engine, and if it's been machined properly the final one goes to a full ester synthetic. Might be worth mentioning that I do 2 or3 changes of gearbox and diff oil over the first 500 as well if they have been rebuilt. New synchro rings make the oil filthy as they bed in.
It's worth emphasizing the ignition timing - if it is too far retarded the engine will run very hot, perhaps damagingly so. The headers/manifolds will almost certainly glow a dull red, but shouldn't go much more than that. You can over-advance the ignition a little, but it MUST NOT pink or it won't last long. For first fire up, have a timing light connected up ready and go straight up to 2500-3000rpm, look for something like 32-34° total advance at thse revs, which should be OK. I would not advise going beyond 36°, especially if you have hypereutectic pistons (e.g. Keith Black, Silvolite etc.) - they don't like it. Ditto the carb - best to err on the rich side - but if you have a new carb out-of-the-box it's likely a bit rich anyway, they sell them like that, so not to worry.
The break-in is best done in the open air to allow air around the motor, although that's not essential. Watch all the gauges and look for leaks. If you have a problem kill it dead, and on restart get the revs back up immediately - it must not idle any more than absolutely necessary.
Funny things, cam break-ins - sort of incredibly exciting and terrifying at the same time!
Roger
This is a huge topic with many opinions and traditions. Before you do anything, it's worth checking that your valvetrain geometry is correct. Probably the most important part of this check is that the rockers are centred on the valve stems, to help reduce wear on the valve stems and valve guides. Take the plugs out and back the rockers off (or the front-most rocker on each bank, at any rate). mark the top of the valve with a black permanent marker pen and carefully reassemble the rocker, setting to the clearance for your spec. Turn the engine over by hand 3 or 4 revolutions and carfully disassemble the rocker - you should have a shiny patch in the centre of the valve stem, indicating correct alignment. If it's offset towards the outside of the head, your pushrods are too long - if towards the intake side, they are too short. You will need to get an adjustable vernier pushrod to measure the correct length and replace the pushrods for the correct size.
With regard to the break-in itself, the basics ore outlined here:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2011/04 ... procedure/
It is dumb to use a cheapo oil here, just because you're going to chuck it after 30 minutes. I don't know how much your engine cost, but good quality oil is cheap insurance. At the very least you absolutely MUST change the filter as soon as you've done the break-in. I do 4 oil and filter changes in the first 250-300 miles with a new engine, and if it's been machined properly the final one goes to a full ester synthetic. Might be worth mentioning that I do 2 or3 changes of gearbox and diff oil over the first 500 as well if they have been rebuilt. New synchro rings make the oil filthy as they bed in.
It's worth emphasizing the ignition timing - if it is too far retarded the engine will run very hot, perhaps damagingly so. The headers/manifolds will almost certainly glow a dull red, but shouldn't go much more than that. You can over-advance the ignition a little, but it MUST NOT pink or it won't last long. For first fire up, have a timing light connected up ready and go straight up to 2500-3000rpm, look for something like 32-34° total advance at thse revs, which should be OK. I would not advise going beyond 36°, especially if you have hypereutectic pistons (e.g. Keith Black, Silvolite etc.) - they don't like it. Ditto the carb - best to err on the rich side - but if you have a new carb out-of-the-box it's likely a bit rich anyway, they sell them like that, so not to worry.
The break-in is best done in the open air to allow air around the motor, although that's not essential. Watch all the gauges and look for leaks. If you have a problem kill it dead, and on restart get the revs back up immediately - it must not idle any more than absolutely necessary.
Funny things, cam break-ins - sort of incredibly exciting and terrifying at the same time!
Roger
Re: Coolant!
Thanks Roger...I will be calling Roadcraft who built my engine. Looks like I need to get an exhaust before doing this procedure, not sure the neighbours would appreciate 20 mins at 3000 rpm without one!
Built St Piran Hawk289FIA in Scotland!
Re: Coolant!
If you have a problem kill it dead.....
During my first run with latest cam the thermostat didn't open (probably didn't like being dry during the cam swap process) lower hose stone cold, engine ran to 100C. Shut down. Second attempt only one of two radiator fans cut in, ran to 100C and climbing. Shut down. Third time lucky, all was good so all in about 40 mins of break in. The cam lobes/followers only get lubed from oil flung off the camshaft hence the need for 2,500 - 3,000 rpm to keep the oil sloshing around during the bedding in process.
But agree, first engine fire up is great fun!
Iain
During my first run with latest cam the thermostat didn't open (probably didn't like being dry during the cam swap process) lower hose stone cold, engine ran to 100C. Shut down. Second attempt only one of two radiator fans cut in, ran to 100C and climbing. Shut down. Third time lucky, all was good so all in about 40 mins of break in. The cam lobes/followers only get lubed from oil flung off the camshaft hence the need for 2,500 - 3,000 rpm to keep the oil sloshing around during the bedding in process.
But agree, first engine fire up is great fun!
Iain
Re: Coolant!
Meant oil flung off the crankshaft 