The Government consultation is now out

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agnoraan
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The Government consultation is now out

Post by agnoraan » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:48 am

After a long wait the Government consultation regarding historically registered cars is out. The one major bonus is that there isn't a limited mileage added as was expected. The downside is that historics are limited to a 15% power to weight ratio increase over the original car. No more putting bigger engines or V8's into your hot rod, or larger more powerful engines into your road going race car etc.

This is the one that will catch them all out though.
If it's modified (outside of the 8 point rule) and not on a "Q" plate then it's straight for BIVA, QUOTE- "Radically altered vehicles should have registration plates with a “Q” prefix, but if a keeper considers they have such a vehicle with an original registration plate they should either test it or establish whether it is a radically altered vehicle"

Here's a link to the document

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... idance.pdf

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Re: The Government consultation is now out

Post by Samthomasracing » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:22 am

I'm having a proper blonde morning, so does this mean hawk cobras need to get tested again ?
When racing was dangerous and sex was safe....

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Re: The Government consultation is now out

Post by peterc » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:33 am

Thanks Nige.
As always with new government legislation there is more to it than first appears. There is a lot to read and of course it will also be how the DVLA chooses to interpret.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... c-interest.

This link has three documents. You have posted the 3rd covering radically altered vehicles ref how a car is registered but the first document is defining vehicles that will be exempt from MOT's. Two separate issues that are of course intertwined.

Vehicles over 40 years old will no longer need an MOT but it depends whether they have it been radically modified or changed since it left the factory. Yes it also affects how they are registered. There have been debates on enhanced safety systems like up rated brakes and whether those mods should be ignored.

If you read the first doc that refers to vehicles that will be exempt from MOT testing (which is where this whole consultation started) there is an interesting paragraph #25 which refers to modifications made pre or post 1988.

So having re built your 1967 MGB into a Hawk how do you now prove what parts were on the donor when you rebuilt it and when they were added. I can't imagine how I would do this as very few have any identifying serial number/casting references and I suspect that the previous owner has passed away. It could be a nightmare if we are now asked to prove what was undertaken when.
The document also does not indicate what happens to cars that have cherished plates e.g. not unique to the actual year. Do they become invalid?
Do the radically altered rules dominate the proceedings thus, regardless of what took place pre 1988, if parts/shape changed that much since factory build it will be a Q ?

I think we would all agree that having to continue with a yearly MOT is of no real consequence. I see it as a peace of mind to be able to prove to the insurance company that the car continues to be roadworthy. Being forced to have another SVA/IVA where to the car has to be re registered and gets a Q plate is another story.

Worrying times for most of us but I think we will have to be patient and wait to see how the DVLA implements these rules after November.
Peter C

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Re: The Government consultation is now out

Post by peterc » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:47 am

Bearing in mind that we were all convinced that having a diesel car was a good idea or that going for a smaller engined car with lower emissions would save us the cost of the road fund licence fees the GOV have now scrapped that whole idea and now its the same license fee for all engines unless its electric. I am sure that there must now be a lot of upset owners who bought a 3 cylinder 900 cc car to cut their license fee who now wish they had 1.6 or 2 litres.
So just because we were all correctly registered years ago doesn't mean they can't change the rules.
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Re: The Government consultation is now out

Post by StewbieC » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:09 pm

Landrover doesn't need an MOT anymore!
Hawk already had IVA and not radically altered since registration so I'm sorted 8)
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Re: The Government consultation is now out

Post by peterc » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:20 pm

I need to re read the proposals but if your interpretation is mods since registration as a Hawk then I'm sure most of us can breathe a sign of relief. Although they could ask the MOT Stn to check and request that you prove parts now fitted were there before IVA/SVA.

Sam, apologies. I didn't see your posting until after I had spent excessive time constructing mine ( web problems my end)
No, I don't think that you are having a blonde moment. Already we have Stewbie interpreting the rules differently to me so I am not sure at present what will happen.
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Re: The Government consultation is now out

Post by agnoraan » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:39 am

This legislation only affects cars that are registered as historic, or are likely to become historic in the future. Any vehicle already on a "Q" plate, or that has been through SVA or BIVA is in the clear as they're date registered from the point of the test. Unfortunatley, a lot of kit cars/Cobras in the past, which used, for example, MGB's or Jags as donors, were registered as an MGB or jaguar in the log book ( in the case of a lot of Cobra replicas "back in the day") It is these vehicles, if registered as historic, that will fall foul of the new legislation. If this is the case, then the only way forward is to present the car for a BIVA test and if it passes it will gain a "Q" plate, as there isn't a donor vehicle,the parts used to build the vehicle are of an undetermined age and origin. The "Q" plate was introduced in 1988 and there was an amnesty period between 1988 and 1998 when SVA was introduced, whereby you could admit to owing a car of "dubious" origins and be given a "Q" plate automatically. Unfortunately, most people never took up the option as there was a stigma surrounding the "Q" plate. I feel that soon a "Q" will be like a "badge of honour" as it makes the vehicle "bullet proof" from the legislation. I would assume that cars on a "Q" and those that have had either an SVA or BIVA test will command high prices and be very sought after.

The legislation states that "Where the vehicle keeper is re-licensing their vehicle on-line it is intended that an additional question be asked whether the vehicle has a current MOT and the vehicle keeper will be required to declare that their vehicle has not been substantially changed since 1988.
Appropriate safeguards will be in place that will prevent a vehicle keeper from declaring the vehicle is over 40 years of age and progressing to the next stage of the licensing process before first declaring or not as to whether their vehicle has been substantially changed." This implies that the all modified vehicles will have to self identify. The law comes in May 2018 and within 12 months they will have captured the details of most of the modified vehicles. From May 2019 all they will do is send off V765/1 requests for info and photos which will sort 8 points compliant vehicles from those requiring BIVA.

The document also states that "Radically altered vehicles should have registration plates with a “Q” prefix, but if a keeper considers they have such a vehicle with an original registration plate they should either test it or establish whether it is a radically altered vehicle". If it's modified beyond the 8 points system, then it's straight for a BIVA test. This would result in the car, if it passes, gaining a "Q" plate. No historic American car is currently able to pass the test as there isn't a compliant windscreen to "EC43" specification available. Those American cars that have been tubbed, tube framed or had the monocoque altered will become impossible to register. If any historic car is modified beyond the 8 point system and not on a "Q" plate then it's straight to the VOSA testing station

Unfortunately, this legislation has been really well thought out, with all of the loop holes closed. The worst part of this for those who have a bigger engine than standard, or those with a tuned engine is this part of the legislation, whereby you are not allowed to increase the power to weight ratio of the vehicle by more than 15% of the original manufacturers design , unless it was carried out before 1988, effectively, no bigger engines or major peformance enhancing parts would be allowed. They are able to use their data base to check if any engine numbers or increased engine capacity has been changed on the log books since 1988. If they see a change of engine number, then again, there could be a request for identification and possibly BIVA. This legislation will also affect all vehicles as they become historic. The 15% rule will also catch out those that have had their cars chipped/modified as they become historic.

There is a likelyhood that the vehicles identity might also be questioned at MOT time, with the tester required to tick a box if the vehicle has been modified and then it would be straight for a BIVA test.

The legislation doesn't make good reading and the effects are going to be very far reaching and affect an awful lot of cars, many of which will not be able to pass the required test.

Please don't shoot the messenger



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Re: The Government consultation is now out

Post by peterc » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:43 am

Thanks again Nige.
Clearly you have found time to read the regs properly and digest which I haven't yet.
You say that those vehicles already SVA'd etc wil be OK, but then go on to say that the owner needs to confirm that the vehicle has not substantially changed since 1988. Er, yes, it was converted into a Hawk!
It would then come down to whether they want to recheck all those cars that have been through the test still comply.
i can't remember if we had to declare the BHP for the SVA but an MGB didn't have much poke so the 15% limit would be a block.
I guess what will be, will be. Can't swim against the tide.
I have just had my MOT so I'll just need to wait to see what happens at next years test.
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Re: The Government consultation is now out

Post by StewbieC » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:04 am

peterc wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:43 am
Er, yes, it was converted into a Hawk!
Only a problem if it is registered as an MGB. If it registered as a Hawk then it hasn't been converted! 8)

With the current registration, (IVA is totally separate and only interested in Amatuer build y/n, to determine which test spec, engine age to determine emissions test and finally build quality and safety) registration - minimum of two major components from donor vehicle, reg of donor goes in the bin and ceases to exist, next reg out of the book from county of new registered keeper from the same year as donor vehicle. Registration date is registration date and not that of the donor. It's a new, age related vehicle.
No points system, no historic status, pay PLG tax ( £250ish/year) on a V8, no worries.

If you have kept the original reg by way of a dubious points system and still registered as the donor or whatever v5 was used then congrats, the value of your car has lost 20-50%, you'll probably have to put in for an IVA, you'll get a Q plate and will have to pay PLG road tax going forwards.
How do you say it .... Oh yes, the day of reckoning has arrived.

This shouldn't put off anyone planning on building as it makes no difference to them. All this is doing is clearing out behind DVLA's sofa and getting rid of all the cobwebs.
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Re: The Government consultation is now out

Post by chriskcode » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:01 am

Nigel, thank you for taking the time to reply in depth, very helpful. As you say far reaching and quite 'clever'.

For us mustang owners It couldn't be worse as a lot of cars have been modified over the years, thankfully I have resisted thus far on my 2 fastbacks otherwise the values would have plummeted....interesting that most mustangs pre 68 did not have the emgine block stamped with a VIN unless a HiPo or Shelby, so god only knows how they will be able to tell....

Not sure I agree with Stewbie on vales of cars with Q plate, yes they will be bomb proof, but having a Q was an oddity by myself and bought the value down in my eyes.

I was thinking about a Hawk/BRA in next 12 months, I will now have to tread very carefully...
Chris

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